[mb-style] CSG

[Chris B]

2008/2/27 Brian Schweitzer <brian.brianschweitzer at gmail.com>:
>
> > > > > >  > > >  languages on the liner, do we then add it not once, but 4 times, plus
>  >  >  >  >  >  > > >  any additional time as needed where the same release also has variant
>  >  >  >  >  >  > > >  versions / reissues in yet further languages?
>  >  >  >  >  >  > >
>  >  >  >  >  >  > > yes. other language editions are added as per
>  >  >  >  >  >  > > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/TranslationTransliterationRelationshipType
>  >  >  >  >  >  > >
>  >  >  >  >  >  > > for releases with more than one language on the cover, i believe we
>  >  >  >  >  >  > > pick one to use on the official release (the native language usually),
>  >  >  >  >  >  > > and then make the rest pseudo-releases.
>  >  >  >  >  >  > >
>  >  >  >  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  >  >  > Can you give an example of such a pseudo-release in classical?
>  >  >  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  >  >  not classical but...
>  >  >  >  >  >  http://musicbrainz.org/release/ab0183d7-b1cc-469f-8e1f-310a8212a053.html
>  >  >  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  >  >  i don't see how classical makes it any different? if someone wants to
>  >  >  >  >  >  store a transl(iter)ation they can, but if it's not actually from the
>  >  >  >  >  >  tracklisting of a release, it's a pseudo-release.
>  >  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  >  That's the point, though.  I don't know that release particularly, but
>  >  >  >  >  taking the pseudo-releases I do tend to run in to, you have a anime
>  >  >  >  >  soundtrack released in Japan, someone translates the titles to add the
>  >  >  >  >  translation, and then we have a pseudo-release listing with translated
>  >  >  >  >  titles.  Those titles, however, are the equivalent of "fansubs" - they
>  >  >  >  >  never actually appeared in English on a liner.
>  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  they're not always fansubs. they could be official translations either
>  >  >  >  on the liner, but not on the *tracklist*, or maybe on an obi strip (eg
>  >  >  >  for 99% of japanese issues of UK/US/... albums)
>  >  >  >
>  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  >  Classical is different, in that, because the titles are descriptive,
>  >  >  >  >  not definitive, it's quite common that a release can have the titles,
>  >  >  >  >  on the same liner, in multiple languages.  I've seen the same
>  >  >  >  >  recording released 4 times, where if you add all the languages up from
>  >  >  >  >  the 4 different liners, you have 9 different possible languages - all
>  >  >  >  >  official, none pseudo-release.
>  >  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  >  This perhaps may happen, somewhat rarely, outside of classical, but
>  >  >  >  >  typically, outside of classical, the track's title is the track's
>  >  >  >  >  title, not a description of the contents of the track.  "Take Five" is
>  >  >  >  >  still "Take Five" on the Japanese imports I have.  But though it might
>  >  >  >  >  happen, it's still going to be rare that you'd have, say, the French
>  >  >  >  >  release using "Prendre cinq" as the title instead.  Classical, on the
>  >  >  >  >  other hand, it not only happens, it's not only quite common, but it's
>  >  >  >  >  also quite common to happen even on the same liner.  So thus the
>  >  >  >  >  question, if we're not going to standardize a language for a composer,
>  >  >  >  >  and we're going to ask that the language of the liner be retained,
>  >  >  >  >  then just what is that language?
>  >  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  >  Do we really want people adding the same exact release multiple times,
>  >  >  >  >  even from the same single CD/LP liner, just because the liner has
>  >  >  >  >  German, French, and English all on the same liner?
>  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  it's only the tracklisting we're concerned with. if a translation
>  >  >  >  appears on the liner/obi strip, then that's a pseudo-release (this
>  >  >  >  part is IMO, but i feel it makes sense)
>  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  if it's an entirely separate release with a different language, then
>  >  >  >  that gets added separately as per
>  >  >  >  http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/dmppanda/wdaurdraft (or 'officially'
>  >  >  >
>  >  >  > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/TranslationTransliterationRelationshipType
>  >  >  >  )
>  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  if multiple languages appear on the same tracklist - eg "1. Track Foo
>  >  >  >  (Le Foo)" - then currently we are to add that verbatim.
>  >  >  >
>  >  >  >  anyways, that's what the guidelines say. IMO any changes should be to
>  >  >  >  the guidelines as a whole. classical might deal with a larger volume
>  >  >  >  of these sort of titles, but the problems are the same all over.
>  >  >
>  >  >  I'm not speaking of obi strips, though you do remind me that I do have
>  >  >  one Brubeck CD with an obi which has Japanese translations.  The liner
>  >  >  on the other hand, even there, remains in English.  But this is what
>  >  >  we're talking about, just one example:
>  >  >  http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/brianfreud/gould.jpg
>  >  >
>  >  >  I didn't even bother to scan the full track titles in the booklet -
>  >  >  they take 8 full pages to list out, for a 2 CD release, in full, in 4
>  >  >  languages.
>  >
>  >  well, that's the important part :)
>  >
>  >  but ok, for the sake of argument lets say "The Well-Tempered Clavier
>  >  Book 1" is a track title... in the scan the english version is clearly
>  >  given priority, so becomes your track title for the 'official'
>  >  release, and the rest should only be in pseudo releases.
>  >
>  >  it could get interesting if no priority is given - then in theory we'd
>  >  have to list all variants in the same tracktitle, but i think there
>  >  comes a point where you have to pick one for the sake of MBz-side
>  >  legibility, and put the rest as pseudo-releases, but if it's just 2
>  >  versions then it's all good.
>
>  Well, that's where it gets fun if we're considering the language to be
>  important - notice even here, the English is bolder in the overall
>  title, then the German is used for the Disc 1 and 2 descriptions - and
>  in the booklet, both (plus the French and Italian) are equally
>  emphasized.

it doesn't matter if the language varies across the official release.
you can always use cherry pick the titles/track titles in a specific
language to use in a pseudo release.

>  It could equally be any other of the releases I have
>  here, where none is bold, so you do have the situation you describe.

well...that's fine to :)

>  But I think calling any of the 4 a pseudo-release misuses that
>  descriptor - all 4 are "official".

but they're not *separate* official *releases*. we need to have one
official release representing a tracklist, otherwise we're creating an
incorrect discography. ReleaseGroups, etc, might expand the releases
we treat as seperate, but we'll never excede those that actually
physically exist (excluding pseudo-releases, obviously)

>  The main point is, though, this is even on only a single release.
>  It's not something we have to guess at; it's a fact that companies
>  like Sony and Naxos release the same releases using different
>  languages in different countries.  I just don't see that the language
>  used has any importance

methinks our users do!

i don't really get the rest (and below). if a release is printed in a
different language, users should be able to enter that. if it's a
seperate official release, fine; if it's not, then it's a pseudo
release.

>; clearly the labels see that text as
>  descriptive, not titular, else they wouldn't be translating.  Thus why
>  should we see it as titular, and not descriptive, placing some
>  inherent importance to the language used?