[mb-users] Sortingorder Dutch tussenvoegsel

[Fred Marchee]

Sander van Zoest schreef:
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 10:38:36PM +0200, Fred Marchee wrote:
>   
>> Hi to all,
>>
>> A while ago I changed the sortingorder of the Dutch comedian Freek de 
>> Jonge from "Jonge, de, Freek" to "Jonge, Freek de". This change led to a 
>> reaction of editor drsaunde that this sortingorder was already discussed 
>> before and that "Jonge, de, Freek" was in fact correct.
>>
>> There is a discussion on "tussenvoegsels" (there is no translation for 
>> this term) on the mbwiki but probably  there wasn't a Dutch guy reading 
>> this discussion. (see: http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/SortNameStyleDiscussion)
>>     
>
> I was involved in this discussion and the point that was made is that
> the "insert" (aka tussenvoegsel) is basically part of the last name.
> Keep in mind that how it is displayed is different than how it is sorted.
>
> Therefore, if you have Last, First, you would expect the "van"s and "van der"s
> to be sorted in groups and not based on their first names. This is why
> usually in dutch systems they have a separate column for tussenvoegsels.
>   
>   
>> The problem is that the proposed (and accepted) sortingorder is wrong 
>> and certainly not common in the Dutch language. (Although Belgian is 
>> like Dutch but not exactly the same this is only about Dutch names!).
>>     
>
>
>
>   
>   
>> In Holland we sort names like: Last name, First name tussenvoegsel
>>
>> So: Armin van Buuren is sorted as: Buuren, Armin van (and not Buuren, 
>> van, Armin)
>>     
>
> This is in display, are you sure this is done that way for sorting?
>   
>   
>> As an example a part of the Dutch phonebook:
>>
>> http://nationaletelefoongids.goudengids.nl/search/leiden/buuren.html
>>
>> There are a lot of tussenvoegsels used in Dutch name the most common are:
>>
>> de, van, het, van de, van het, van 't but they all have in common that 
>> they are sortingwise the least interesting part of a name.
>>
>> So an "official proposal":
>>
>> Please let the sortingorder of Dutch names with a tussenvoegsel be: Last 
>> name, First name tussenvoegsel.
>>     
>
> Please look at the following example. I'd love your feedback. :)
>
>
> Full Names
> ----------------
> Sander van Zoest
> Sander Zoest
> Sander Soest
> Jan Soest
> Jan van Soest
> Jan van der Soest
>
> Sorting the tussenvoegsel separately would sort them as follows, which
> I would consider correct, but feel free to correct me. :) I have only
> lived in the netherlands for 14 years of my life (mostly my first). 
>
> Last, Tussenvoegsel, First
> ------------------------------------
> Soest,        , Jan
> Soest,        , Sander
> Soest, van    , Jan
> Soest, van der, Jan,
> Zoest,        , Sander
> Zoest, van    , Sander
>
>
> And the suggested method would sort as follows:
>
> Last, First Tussenvoegsel
> -------------------------
> Soest, Jan
> Soest, Jan van
> Soest, Jan van der
> Soest, Sander
> Zoest, Sander
> Zoest, Sander van
>
>
> Please let me know if I had it all wrong, but it my understanding that
> the display manner was the this way and the actual sorting was the former.
>
> Best,
>   
The last manner is, in the Netherlands, the right way to sort names. 
Van, van der and so on are in fact not important for the sorting order 
but usually in order of importancy it is

1 Last name
2 First name
3 tussenvoegsel

Cheers,

Fred