[mb-users] Sortingorder Dutch tussenvoegsel

[Sander van Zoest]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:32:26PM +0200, Fred Marchee wrote:
> 
> Kuno Woudt schreef:
> > On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 11:32:42AM +0200, Kees Bakker wrote:
> >   
> >> Op 19 apr 2008, om 03:19 heeft Sander van Zoest het volgende geschreven:
> >>
> >>     
> >>> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 10:38:36PM +0200, Fred Marchee wrote:
> >>>       
> >>>> Hi to all,
> >>>> ...
> >>>> As an example a part of the Dutch phonebook:
> >>>>
> >>>> http://nationaletelefoongids.goudengids.nl/search/leiden/buuren.html
> >>>>         
> >
> > Looks like that site does sort on 'lastname, insert, firstname':
> >
> > http://nationaletelefoongids.goudengids.nl/search/amsterdam/Hulst.html
> >
> > Interesting to note is that it doesn't make a distinction between
> > 'van' and 'vd' when sorting.  (vd or v/d is short for either 'van de', 
> > 'van der' or 'van den').
> >
> >   
> >> Sorting order 1:
> >> Soest,  , Bart
> >> Soest,  , Jan
> >> Soest, van , Anton
> >> Soest, van , Kees
> >> Soest, van de, Dirk
> >> Soest, van der, Cor
> >>
> >> Sorting order 2:
> >> Soest, Anton van
> >> Soest, Bart
> >> Soest, Cor van der
> >> Soest, Dirk van de
> >> Soest, Jan
> >> Soest, Kees van
> >>     
> >
> > I too prefer method 1, the order we have now.
> >
> > -- kuno / warp.
> >
> >   
> It looks like in Dutch the "tussenvoegsel" isn't important in sorting, 
> it's least important. And as I wrote in another mail, I have never seen 
> in real live, the sorting order with the two comma's. And also in the 
> "offical" KPN (KPN was Holland's first telephone provider) phonebook a 
> sorting order like Last name, First name tussenvoegsel is used.

You are confusing sorting with display. The commas represent columns as
separate items to sort. It is not suggesting it should be displayed in
this manner.
  
> Usually a strange thing like a tussenvoegsel isn't understand in English 
> speaking countries and it is/was common to change a name to Vanzoest 
> instead of keeping the Sander van Zoest (remember Van Halen? or make it 
> a double name Armand Van Helden was once Armand van Helden)

This change is mostly, because most computer systems do not handle spaces
in last names appropriately. This even is not handled correctly in the
Netherlands most of the time. The only time I see it handled correctly
is when they store the nobiliary particle separately.
  
-- Sander