[mb-users] Re: MusicBrainz-users Digest, Vol 53, Issue 16

Thu Jan 17 17:28:28 UTC 2008

> Outstanding!  Do you have this data in a more structured format (e.g.,
> database) that would allow you to easily adapt to changes in CSG?

Yes for some, no for all - though, now that it is standardized, it does
become the work of only an hour or so to split along any demarkation point
needed, if needed.  As
http://www.brianfreud.byethost13.com/CSGOperaThing.html shows, 95% of
classical fits to a common pattern.  But if you dig back 2 or 3 months in
the style list, I posted a list of 12 or 15 different catcorner cases I'd
run into, and how each type falls into that funky 5% which requires
"creative" interpretations of CSG. :P  (ie, they don't quite fit into a
database well unless you made the database much much more complex than the
other 95% of works/movements need.)

> >> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/CSGStandard/Mozart
> >
> > I don't understand the difference between these two entries:
> >
> > 1) 6 Minuets for Orchestra No. 1 in D major, K. 130a/164
> > 2) 16 Minuets for Orchestra in C major, K. 176: I.
> >
> > Why use "No. 1" for the first but "I." for the second?

Mainly just my having worked on it long enough to inadvertently use one
style the first time, and another the other.  :P  I'm going through now to
try and catch as many of such inconsistencies as I can.

> Seems to me that K 130a/164 should be 6 Minuets for Orchestra in D
> major, K 130a/164: I.
>
> -Aaron
>

Actually, I would think the reverse, but it's differ, I think, based on this
work.  I could have, say,
8 Variations on Chr. E. Graaf: "Laat ons juichen, Batavieren!" for Piano in
G major, K. 24
2 German Church Songs for Voice & Piano No. 1 in F major, K. 336c/343 "O
Gottes Lamm"
which also is "number work_type ..." but is one "work" in the playing, if
you get what I mean...  The label might split it to one track per variation
(though not on the single entry for this work we currently have in the db),
but it still was intended to be one work with multiple movements.

Then you have
6 Minuets for Orchestra No. 1 in D major, K. 130a/164
16 Minuets for Orchestra No. 1 in C major, K. 176       (corrected)
6 German Dances No. 1 for Orchestra in C major, K. 536
then
6 Minuets for Orchestra No. 2 in D major, K. 130a/164
16 Minuets for Orchestra No. 2 in C major, K. 176       (corrected)
6 German Dances No. 2 for Orchestra in C major, K. 536
...
as the minuets and dances are separate works grouped as a Chopin-style opus,
each perfectly performable as a single piece, without requiring the other
5/15/5 minuets/dances to be played.

This may be more one of those CSG issues to pin down (and perhaps we ought
to move this over to the style list then), but I'm looking at a differently
sorted version of the Mozart list, with an eye to this type of piece, and
yes, it is inconsistently done.  However we decide to do it, I'm sure it'd
be a good idea to pin such a thing down, so the Chopin/Beethoven/Bach lists
can all be done in such a manner, as well as the Mozart list being updated.

For Mozart, since that is the one complete list I can draw from, we have the
following 45 works as different affected cases (randomly selecting one
movement from each):

Sets of Canons (1)
---------------------------------------------
2 Canons in 4 Parts in F major, K. 515b/2/KV 228: "Lebet wohl"

Sets of Dances (7)
---------------------------------------------
6 German Dances for Orchestra, K. 509
6 German Dances for Orchestra in B-flat major, K. 600: III. German Dance &
Trio. (No tempo indication)
4 German Dances for Orchestra in A major, K. 602: IV. German Dance & Trio.
(No tempo indication)
3 German Dances for Orchestra in C major, K. 605 "Die Schlittenfahrt": III.
German Dance & Trio & Coda. (No tempo indication)
4 Contredanses for Orchestra in G major, K. 271c/267: I.
6 Contredanses for Orchestra in F major, K. 448b/462: VI.
3 Contredanses for Orchestra, K. 535a/deest: I. Dance in A major

Sets of Fugues (3)
---------------------------------------------
2 Small Fugues for Piano (or Organ) No. 2 in E-flat major, K. Anh
A61+A62/(K2) 154a/KV deest: II.
6 Fugues in E minor, K. deest NMA IX:27/ii Anh 17
2 Fugues in E-flat major, K. deest NMA IX:27/ii Anh 18

Sets of Minuets (15)
---------------------------------------------
16 Minuets for Orchestra in A major, K. 176: VII.
3 Minuets for Orchestra in B-flat major, K. 363: II.
12 Minuets for Orchestra in A major, K. 568: VII.
12 Minuets for Orchestra in A major, K. 585: VII.
6 Minuets for Orchestra in B-flat major, K. 599: IV.
4 Minuets for Orchestra in A major, K. 601: I.
2 Minuets for Orchestra in B-flat major, K. 604: I.
6 Minuets for Orchestra No. 1 in D major, K. 130a/164: Minuetto & Trio
5 Minuets for Orchestra in B-flat major, K. 448a/461: IV.
7 Minuets with Trio for Violin, Cello, & Bass in A major, K. 61b/(K2) 65a:
III.
19 Minuets for 2 Oboes (or Flutes), 2 Horns (or Trumpets), 2 Violins, Cello,
& Bass No. 1, KV 103: I.
6 Minuets for Orchestra in C major, K. 61e/104: I.
6 Minuets for Orchestra in G major, K. 61f/105: VI.
6 Minuets for Orchestra in A major, K. 61h/deest: II.
2 Minuets with Contredanse for Orchestra in B-flat major, K. 448c/463
"Quadrilles": II.

Sets of Songs (1)
---------------------------------------------
2 German Sacred Songs for Voice & Piano No. 1 in F major, K. 336c/343 "O
Gottes Lamm" / No. 2 in C major, K. 336c/343 "Als aus Ägypten"

Sets of Variations (18)
---------------------------------------------
8 Variations on Chr. E. Graaf: "Laat ons juichen, Batavieren!" for Piano in
G major, K. 24
7 Variations on Dutch Traditional: "Wilhelmus van Nassau" for Piano in D
major, K. 25
10 Variations on Christoph Will: "Unser dummer Pöbel meint' from "La
Rencontre imprévue" for Piano in G major, K. 455
12 Variations on an Unknown Allegro for Piano in B-flat major, K. 500
9 Variations on Jean-Pierre Duport: Minuet for Piano in D major, K. 573
"Duport Variationen"
6 Variations on Antonio Salieri: "Mio caro Adone" from "La fiera di Venezia"
for Piano in G major, K. 173c/180
12 Variations on J. C. Fischer: Minuet for Piano in C major, K. 189a/179
12 Variations on Antoine-Laurent Baudron: Le Barbier de Seville: "Je suis
Lindor" for Piano in E-flat major, K. 299a/354
12 Variations on French Traditional: "Ah, vous dirai-je, Maman" for Piano in
C major, K. 300e/265
12 Variations on French Traditional: "La belle Françoise" for Piano in
E-flat major, K. 300f/353
9 Variations on Nicolas Dezède: Comedie melée d'Ariettes Julie: "Lison
dormait" for Piano in C major, K. 315d/264
12 Variations for Violin & Piano No. 44 in G major, K. 374a/359 "La bergère
Célimene"
6 Variations for Violin & Piano No. 45 in G major, K. 374b/360 "Hélas, j'ai
perdu mon amant"
8 Variations on André Ernest Modeste Grétry: Les mariages samnites: March
"Dieu d'amour" for Piano in F major, K. 374c/352
6 Variations on Giovanni Paisiello: I filosofi immaginarii: "Salve tu,
Domine" for Piano in F major, K. 416e/398
8 Variations on G. Sarti: "Come un'agnello" from "Fra i due litiganti" for
Piano in A major, K. 454a/460
8 Variations on Der dumme Gärtn: "Ein Weib ist das herrlichste Ding" for
Piano in F major, K. 613
6 Variations on an Original Theme for Piano in F major, K. 547b/54

My sense is that the Dances, Minuets, and Songs were intended in the "Opus"
manner, such that any one can be split off and performed independently.
These I would suggest are cases where "No." ought to be used.
The Variations would be the opposing case, where the movements are in an
opus, but are intended to be performed as a set, not as a single movement
separated from the whole, and these I would suggest should use the roman
number movement indication...
As for the fugues and canons, I'm not sure.

Any thoughts?

(Oh yes, and please, do let me know if you see any such non-typo style
inconsistencies, and I'll fix them - I already noticed most of the concertos
have the key and instrumentation inverted in line position; already fixed, I
just need to merge the changes back in to the wiki :P)

Brian
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