lgonze at panix.com
Tue Mar 30 22:01:42 UTC 2004
IRC log relative to RDF/XML:
key88sf ok - what kind of stuff got simplified?
lgonze the biggest thing was getting rid of namespaces
lgonze wiped out mm: and dc: !
DefaultFormatInRdfVersionFour was the result
lgonze there's a lot in there. we should talk out the details of the
changes so you know what the goals were
key88sf I dont get why you wiped out namespaces?
lgonze we weren't getting as much from them as we thought we would
key88sf it doesn't hurt to have them, does it?
lgonze really, there just weren't that many external tags from foaf,
musicbrainz and dublin core that we couldn't live without
lgonze well, the hurt was that the format was too verbose, and writing
software would require you to look up too many things
key88sf I thought the point was that dc:creator uses a none which is
already publicly accepted
key88sf er...but that just changes the nodename
key88sf either way, you use lookup("creator") or lookup("dc:creator"),
lgonze yah, but danbri's email the other day made that less obvious
lgonze for foaf they went through all kinds of trouble to get the right
thing to happen
lgonze with dc:creator
lgonze but look at it as a cumulative thing. the impact of all the
little changes is to that the current stuff is a lot more
comprehensible than before.
lgonze no more foaf, either!
key88sf so what does RDF buy us?
lgonze that's a good question.
lgonze I like your comment on the list about reopening that
key88sf thanks - yah I'd like to as well...
key88sf because after implementing this
key88sf it seems kinda useless
Russss no mm? shocking :P
lgonze a brutal round of culling
key88sf btw -- if no mm, maybe we should change "Track" to something
lgonze *with mb folk involved* !
key88sf liek "media"
Russss yeah, looks good
key88sf since this can be a playlist of any media type
lgonze on webjay we've had fun times mixing in video with audio
lgonze hang on, I'll pull up an example...
lgonze got to open that in Real, though. sorry winamp folk. :)
lgonze so what's next?
lgonze the RDF conversation I guess
key88sf so what do you think about renaming trackList and Track to
mediaList and media
lgonze I don't really have a deep understanding of RDF.
key88sf and also RDF convo
lgonze about track->media I don't really have an opinion
lgonze in my own code for handling playlists my variables for these
things call them media rather than tracks or songs
lgonze but in user-facing stuff I call them songs.
key88sf mine too
key88sf has someone compiled a list of all the known nodes for a
Russss we're trying to standardise on "track" as opposed to "song"
Russss track is a nicer name I think, since song implies singing :P
lgonze I guess I like track a little better than media for the container
lgonze because media to me implies that this is the mp3, and we put the
mp3 into the id or cid
key88sf track is more specific to CDs though
Russss it becomes a lot clearer for classical music though, you
wouldn't talk about a classical song unless it involves singing
Russss I dunno, "track" existed before CDs :)
lgonze intuitively, these things seem to me to be "items" or "entries"
more than either tracks or songs.
lgonze I like track a little better than media because it's a little
more generic, that's all.
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key88sf so how are we going to talk about RDF ?
key88sf also - is there a listing of the possible nodes we know about
for <Track> ?
key88sf artist, album, duration, etc???
lgonze I want to talk to dan brickley for a little while about it. or
at least somebody with a deep understanding who's not too partisan.
key88sf will you be able to do that within the week?
lgonze about nodes, see the first example Track at
lgonze also, need to find out how to adapt cc: to an RDF-less world.
key88sf so that first one is all the possible nodes that are predefined?
key88sf what about mimeType ?
lgonze the one thing it lacks is that it doesn't use multiple cid's
lgonze don't know if there's consensus on mimeType
key88sf publisher, copyright?S
key88sf trackNum ?
key88sf i guess tracknum is there
lgonze the way we reached consensus on those nodes is that they were
useful for fuzzy search
lgonze I objected to having song name, artist, album etc, because I
figured it was all going to be metacrap
lgonze my preference was to put anything like that in the annotation or
title. just let it be loose text.
key88sf loose text is impossible to parse
key88sf you need a way to get the info
key88sf even if it's crap
lgonze and move the good song metadata to external lookups using freedb
or mb or something like that
lgonze well, this is a loose consensus
lgonze I'm just explaining my own perspective.
lgonze I was convinced to have this stuff based on it being useful for
lgonze that's why song runtime is in there, because it's a great
key88sf I agree
key88sf I think it's good to have as much info as possible, too...so
players can choose what to use and what not to use.
key88sf at least about the song
lgonze some players will have really powerful metadata lookups, some
will want to rely on what's in the playlist
lgonze ....phhh.... what else?
lgonze the todo items are are to figure out what value we're getting
from rdf at this point
lgonze so, next up is criteria
lgonze my feeling on this is that it's hard and deserves a subproject
of its own
key88sf well the thing is, I'd like to use it pretty soon :)
key88sf I have a working version of it already
key88sf which is basically what I published
lgonze that is awesome
lgonze coffee's boiling, brb
key88sf that's another reason I think RDF is useless here
key88sf it forces Criteria nodes to be RDF compliant too
lgonze off topic:
lgonze a friend of mine just emailed that he's going to work on a c
lgonze I guess what I'm thinking about Criteria nodes is where to plug
key88sf how about after the trackList ?
lgonze what makes criteria hard is that it's an information retrieval
problem. it's a relevance query. there's a lot of room to try different
lgonze not in the tracks themselves?
key88sf it's a criteria for generating an entire playlist
lgonze is there a usecase where a person has one criteria followed by
key88sf from your collection
key88sf there should only be 0 or 1 Criteria nodes in a playlist.
lgonze hang one, I'm going to go back and re-read your Criteria notes
lgonze a thing you need is standard metadata field names
lgonze to query against
lgonze that X- notation has gotta go, dude.
lgonze use a namespace
key88sf you're reading a way old version
key88sf hang on
lgonze here's the direction I'm leaning --
lgonze I don't want to define a canonical criteria format right now
lgonze but I think it's a useful thing to do, so I don't want to do
anything against your project.
key88sf should we have a version number for the spec?
lgonze my feeling is that this criteria format could come from a
different namespace, and that will lead to the right result.
key88sf so if it gets revised later, then parsers can know what to do
lgonze about version number, I don't know.
key88sf or perhaps the namespace url has the version
lgonze ruaok was for versioning using the namespace URL. yalaforge and
myself were for adding features later by adding a second namespace for
the new features.
key88sf but the new version may use the old features in a different way
lgonze yeah, we'd have to bump up the version if we broke backward
lgonze n.b. I have some features that are really important to me that I
haven't tried to get into the common spec. I've been figuring on adding
those as an external module.
OpenStandardPlaylistNamespace is a lot fresher.
key88sf hey I gotta go --back in like 1 hr
lgonze give me a should with lgonze: msg if you want my irc client to
let me know you're there.
-->| ruaok (~robert at adsl-66-122-79-22.dsl.snlo01.pacbell.net) has
=-= icepick-away is now known as icepick
yalaforge is back (gone 03:22:09)
yalaforge reads the backscroll
lgonze welcome back
ruaok so, is it a forgone conclusion to say that RDF is getting
yalaforge seems so. I'm not happy with that though
ruaok and in thinking about that, it makes sense.
yalaforge may I ask who key88sf is?
ruaok If we're not going to take advantage of dc:, mm:, faof: then why
bother with RDF?
ruaok has no clue on key88sf
yalaforge right, that's the thought. and if we want to support criteria
stuff, RDF syntax makes things more difficult
ruaok yalaforge: I trust you want to see RDF stay?>
yalaforge I'm no longer sure about that
lgonze key88sf is daveb
yalaforge cool. Hi dave!
yalaforge oh, he's away
lgonze so, rdf
ruaok you mean xml?
yalaforge we don't use much of RDF at the moment. just syntax
lgonze do we run into problems integrating with the next gen of
rdf-oriented tools if we use xml?
yalaforge I don't know any of those tools or know how they'll look like
ruaok hard to say -- what are those tools? Do they exist yet?
lgonze and if we only use the syntax, we get the drawbacks without the
lgonze inference is a Good Thing.
lgonze finding nearby playlists would be awesome.
yalaforge and the main drawback here is a more complicated syntax
yalaforge how would an application do this?
yalaforge read the osp:playlist attribute and fetch it?
lgonze it would be fucking fantastic
ruaok I'm going to be on a panel for Postgres replication at OSCON.
ruaok I guess I better go write some replication code soon. :-)
yalaforge oh, BTW, I'll have to talk to you about that
ruaok ok, lets do that after this.
ruaok if you're still awake.
yalaforge probably not, let's do it next week ;-)
ruaok ok, sorry about that tangent.
lgonze getting pretty late for you, yalaforge
Russss we were considering moving to MySQL because postgres replication
is still so poor
yalaforge no problem, I've made time for tomorrow. no need to get up
ruaok apparently that will be a hot topic on OSCON. There were
apparently so many talks about that that they consolidated them into
lgonze so it seems like rdf/xml is all the drawbacks of rdf with none
of the benefits.
yalaforge so far we agree
lgonze plus we get burned on the scary vibe of RDF
yalaforge the acceptence problem is still huge
ruaok I think if we can focus on using XML as the 'delivery format' of
the playlist and having the CR tap into the cool technologies then
we're getting the best of most worlds, I think.
lgonze hm, cool idea
ruaok I wonder what danbri will think of this.
yalaforge he'll hate us, probably
lgonze I think he'll think his time has been wasted...
Russss are there any advantages to RDF?
yalaforge Russss: yes, but not if we want to have an XML schema for the
yalaforge that restricts us to some very basic stuff
ruaok but, danbri is a reasonable guy -- I think he will see our point.
Its not like we're making flippant decisions.
ruaok Though we are flipping a bit. :-)
yalaforge still, the vocabulary (using namespaces) can be used for both
our XML playlist and for RDF
lgonze ruaok: yes, I don't like flipping.
yalaforge I did that a few times in this project
ruaok agreed, but flipping at this stage is cheap. Wait a few more
weeks and it gets $$$
lgonze it's cheap for us to bite the bullet, expensive for working code
to do it.
ruaok And all of the pains we are going through now are *exactly* the
same q's I had back in the day when I was hacking on the RDF WS for MB.
yalaforge anyway, we can remove the rdf:RDF from strawman 9 and we're
back in business
ruaok Its not gotten any easier -- even 2-3 years later.
yalaforge is a bit sad his jena parser is useless
yalaforge but that'll pass
ruaok my thoughts keep returning to the CR.
lgonze that's the same pain that we're trying to eliminate by making
this decision early, matthias
yalaforge does anyone of you know some of the XML linking standards?
lgonze not me
yalaforge perhaps we need some of that technology here
ruaok 1. Its not a trivial task. 2. For maximum adoption, what language
should it be written in?
ruaok like xlink?
ruaok or is it xpath?
yalaforge or XPointer. yes
ruaok key88sf: hey!
yalaforge key88sf: welcome!
lgonze hey db
yalaforge did you read the backscroll?
ruaok We've been bantering the benefits of XML vs RDF>
ruaok thinks expose' rules.
key88sf so we're agreed to nix RDF then?
ruaok not quite yet.
yalaforge but almost
ruaok no official vote has been taken.
lgonze I'd like to sleep on it.
lgonze jesus, talk about an echo chamber
yalaforge we heard all the arguments pro and contra?
yalaforge anything else?
lgonze I think so.
lgonze the deciding factor for me is your point that we can't do the
powerful stuff in rdf/xml
lgonze so we're paying the price without getting the benefit
ruaok yalaforge: nitpick: in english 'con' is used only.
yalaforge oh, thanks!
yalaforge ususally, extensibility is one of the key features of RDF
yalaforge with the fixed RDF schema we don't have it
lgonze alright, well, seems like we know where we're at
yalaforge what now?
lgonze next up is to make a new version of the vocab, call it
tentative, maybe also ask around a little to see if anybody has a good
reason for us to stick with RDF after all, and move on to code.
ruaok I think we need to propose a re-vote onthe list.
ruaok lgonze: can you do the new version and I'll put out the call for
yalaforge I think the vocabulary is pretty good already
lgonze I like what we have a lot. :)
ruaok should I wait until lgonze has something that is XMLififed?
lgonze we could stop here and still kick ASX's ass
yalaforge should I change
DefaultFormatInRdfVersionFour to plain XML?
key88sf plz :)
lgonze the sigh of relief heard around the world. :)
ruaok I'll start posting.
lgonze yalaforge: which one of us is doing the rewrite? I don't think
either of us minds.
ruaok do we have chatlogs to post about this?
yalaforge I'm rewriting the wiki page right now
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